Caledonian Crusaders

Hi all

Sorry this is a little late, I meant to do it yesterday!

This morning I removed all ranks from the guild -for the first time in our 4 year(?ish) history.

Well as you know I have been planning to have this kind of shake up for a long time. I value guild loyalty a lot, and want to reward those who contribute to the guild in different ways. The guild rep will help a lot with that. I am still considering what to do with the ranks as we all level up, but the most important task I need from officers is obviously with leading raids when we are all level 85. I'd like to give some new people the opportunity to give it a go, we have some very good natural leaders and some very knowledgable and level-headed people that will be ideal, both existing officers and others.

I am firmly against the idea of anyone having two mains in different guilds, as I see it as "having your cake and eating it". I think it will only cause tension when we start raiding and I think we need to have a clear policy on it where a few people will have to decide where they stand.

I don't think there will ever be a point where everyone agrees on the way to do everything, so I need to listen to everyones views, take them into account, and make decisions. Some may be unpopular with some, but we can't please everyone all of the time. As always, I really value positive suggestions and your feedback on ideas.

For now, everyone is the same rank, can see and contribute to all GB tabs, can withdraw 2 items a day from tabs 1,2 and 3. Guild repairs are off. There is obviously no officer chat. I think we should use guild rep and players' behaviour during levelling and heroics to judge who will be positive in contributing to raid leadership at 85, and who naturally would suit these roles.

Bert and I have talked a lot about this and I hope that all seems fair enough. I will be glad to hear everyone's comments.

So... no decisions for the moment, time to reflect on it and enjoy levelling up. When most regular player have levelled up and we start doing more raids, I will need a strong team of officers to continue to help keep the guild such a great place to be!

Resetting the ranks is fine. It's a good idea to give new people a chance. Although in all honesty, I think everybody already had plenty of chances to become officer if that was their aspiration. So I think we'll see a very similar group of officers in a month. And there's nothing wrong with that, they served us well in WotLK.

About the two mains thing: It will defiantly be much more of an issue in the coming weeks as everybody is leveling and gearing up, and spending their money on their characters etc. But some people have time for two mains, and manage to avoid conflicts of interest. If there are those who have more ambition than they can realize in Caledonian Crusaders, I would rather have them share their experience with their alt, than them being frustrated with lack of progression, or even worse, leaving us altogether. Of course, they should do as much as possible to push Caledonian Crusaders forward as well. We have a lot of skill and potential, backed up by friendly personalities and good, fair leadership.

PS: Forgot to say: So I think this should always be handed on a personal, case-by-case basis.

You will need to be carefull using the guild rep as guildline. Due to the way guild rep accrues, those with the highest amount of guild rep might not necessarily be the most suitable as they will tend to be the most 'hardcore' players. Although perhaps these might be the best. All I'm saying is take it with a pinch of salt, though no doubt you are anyway

After a few months we'll all be exalted with the guild anyway

Thinking about it, the amount contributed to guild experience would be a better yardstick, though not by much. Being able to craft 50 epics for the GB doesn't necessarily make you a good raid leader.

Have fun all ^^

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

To respond to your concerns:

Jed -regarding the mains issue, I agree that in some cases where there is no conflict of interests it can be useful, for instance, seeing how another guild deals with a difficult encounter. However, if the player splits peak playing times between two characters, treating each as their main, this will create difficulties with availability and contention on entitlement to loot. It also means that they are contributing less overall to the guild as a player than others who play an equivalent amount. There are certainly two sides to being in a guild, and I prefer to have players who ask what they can do for the guild rather than what the guild can do for them. Call me stubborn by all means, but I have considered this over a long time and have firmly made my mind up. I know this issue will be unpopular for a minority, but I have to consider the majority of players who use alts to the benefit of the guild and would support this. There are plenty of opportunities for players to pug raids if they are not needed in the guild, and in WotLK we started alt runs and established a system for getting alts certain achievements which would make it easier for them to get into good pugs.

Bohr- Don't worry, I certainly wasn't suggesting that we purely use guild rep to decide who officers are. My statement merely suggests that this will be helpful. It is only one of many indicators, and not the most important one by a long shot.

Keep the positive suggestions coming guys, and remember it is always easy to pick holes in a theory than come up with a better one!

I would agree that having 2 mains in difference guilds, in the main, is not what we want. If the player can sufficiently demonstrate that they have such an abundance of wow playing time that they can run 2 mains with different guilds and not have clashes of interests then than can be taken into consideration.

Using guild rep as one of many different indications is a good idea.
I'm actually disappointed in the way the guild rep works. You can get rep but contribue nothing at all to the guild.
Just soley for completing quests. (which is what I've been doing) I hope as you rep up this changes.
I would have thought things like depositing resources in the guild bank would gain rep. Where you are actually contributing something to the guild, but still don't have to do raids/instances or battle grounds.

Ultimately through, regardless of what criteria is used to promote people to raid leader you are only going to find out how good they are once they start leading raids. Now I get a lot of you have already lead them and thats great.
But maybe for the new potential raid leaders a trial is required before a raid leader rank is bestowed.

thats my 2 pennies worth

for me it seems unfair for ppl to have 2 mains in 2 different guilds and be rolling on the loot in both guilds, this means that others are loosing out, dont we all only really have 1 main anyway?..... its the 1 u prefer to level 1st.... isnt it? i know some people have time on there hands and raid in other guilds but these chars are alts until u prefer to play them more and then u level them before ur mains so then my feelings would be that these are now ur main:)


the guild ranks:- i am not a leader, i just lke being in the raid i dont mind giving out flasks or putting down fish but i dont want to be a officer im quite happy just being there for the raid experience.

Hi all. as one of the ppl that does have a toon in another guild and was the first to do so i you like to put my point forward. i can understand ppl saying that we have 2 mains but i dont feel that this should be a problem if it does not affect the guild in what we are doing.

The ppl that do have 2 guilds tend to be on a lot during the day for various reason mine being i have a lot of free time because of uni. Because of this there was a lot of times when there was only mainly myself and 2-3 others online most days. After questing and lvling alts and dailies for them there was not much we could do on wow while we waited for the evening raids apart from pugging.

When i saw the daytime guild and saw a chance to see how other guilds did things and there tacts i first asked officers if it was ok to apply then after i got a yes from a few i did so. Raiding with them helped the guys in both guilds see how we could do fights against bosses in differnet ways which in essence helped the guild to move forward.

With regards to the 2 mains again. i myself only see sharky as a main. this should be evident due to the fact that since cata has come out i have been on him and only him trying to get him to a raid standard and ready for guild runs when needed before i turn my attention to other toons. The main point i have been trying to make is that if it doesnt have an affect on the playying time for the guild it should not be a problem.


I would like to point out, just in case someone else does, i know that for the couple of months before cata was release i hardly raided with the guild. This was because of a few reason but nothing to do with being in 2 guilds but mainly because of how a raid was created.
I feel that it is unfair to create a raid for the next 2-3 weeks at the same time as this means that the same ppl can sign up at once for them all and as we tend to do a first come first in, except when somethin is needed, this tends to lead to the same ppl doing the raids all the time which will lead to an elitiest group forming. The other way i noticed raids formed a lot was straight after a a raid was done. All thoses in that raid would sign up straight away leaving no room for anyone else again leading to the point above. I feel a system needs to be sorted that would benefit all within the guild not just the few that always seem to be raiding.

Sorry to make this sound like a rant if it does it was not my intention. ty all

I feel quite strongly on this matter so think it's time to put my two'penneth in. At present I am unemployed thus have oodles of time to play this game and as Sharky stated above when i had done dailys on my toons and a bit of levelling there was nowt to do until raid time in the evening. To that end I took Anshallah off to another guild who raided during the day with an Officers blessing. Now to the Crux of the matter I see absolutely no reason why it is detrimental to either of the toons/Guilds when one is AM and the other is PM and never the twain shall meet. My time can be spread evenly between both toons, this being my main reason for levelling both together rather than favouring one because i see them as Two Mains.

When there is a steadfast immovable Law concerning this within the Guild charter then my Two main approach will have to change accordingly and i will have to come to a decision on the matter but if everything is all ok at present i see no reason to make that decision yet, and will continue to level both concurrently as mains.

Right here it goes. The way I see this two character business. I for one will hopefully be taking some part in making raid compositions and I see the positives of those who are daytime raiding adding there experiences and advice in the up and coming raids. From boss fight tactics to general trash pulls and CC! The flipside of the coin is (which did happen in WoTLK) folks who had been grinding away during there daytime raids on some boss in say ICC and in turn have signed up to the 7:30 ICC raid with this guild. These persons have pulled out because there too tired to raid or there unmotivated and a hinderence to the raid which obviously effects the raid with getting other people in as well as delaying the start. Not saying this happened all the time but there were several occasions.
This is where the guild rules come to play because we say one main on this server and specifically ask in the application is this the case. so we can ask the other question what do you class your guild as your 'main' guild? As Darrich points out if you look at the wider picture it does seem that you are rolling main for both characters in both guilds so it could be classed and greedy or that you've a lot of time on your hands and can play two raids in a day with no problems.
As for the guild rank I believe that it will refresh the guild so much that people won't constantly be whispering bert,mag,andy and even me at times! We can set specific ranks for specific roles so people then know who to talk to about what. Might even have a customer service (Amanath)!

The way I see it the mains loot priority was introduced to prevent a conflict of interests where someone might have a main in another guild or on another realm where they raided several nights a week, and on those nights they were unavailable for our raids. This scenario developed several times during the course of WotLK with former members who predominantly played on other realms and only logged their Callies character every week or two, when there was a quiet night on their usual server.

As Mag posted:

if the player splits peak playing times between two characters, treating each as their main, this will create difficulties

In that scenario I think it is reasonable to ask where their priorities lie. Personally I don't see anything wrong with someone having an alt in the guild, perhaps because they have a friend here. However we need to be clear on loot rules as it is unfair for a main to lose out on loot to a character that will rarely raid with the guild.

As Dajj pointed out, in theory this isn't an issue with ED as they are a daytime guild and their raids never clash with ours. My attitude to this all along has been ED raid during the day, Callies in the evening and "never the twain shall meet" and as long as this remains the case then I don't see a problem. Dell made a good and valid point about burnout and it is something that you guys need to consider and try to avoid.

Sharky levelled his Rogue to 85 and has been running dungeons on him, it is quite clear where his priorities lie. If he had for example levelled his Pally to 85, run dungeons and then heroics while shelving his rogue for several months, I think at that stage it would be hard to come to any other conclusion than that character being an alt.

Therefore my view is that as long as the character in the Callies is being seen to be active and available rather than gathering dust, it's not an issue. However you need to bear in mind that if your Callies character is neglected and hardly ever played to the extent that it clearly becomes an alt, then it is only fair to other guildies that alt loot rules will have to apply to that character.

Good points earlier about raiding elsewhere bringing additional valuable experience to our raids too.

Regarding ranks. I think the ranking system was too complicated and we need to come up with something simple

GM
Bank Manager
Assistant
Officer
Raider
Member
Alt

IMO we don't need an initiate rank. Just promote newbies to member, it saves us having to promote them again after a few days which amounts to extra work, and inevitably some are overlooked and remain initiate for longer than they should. We don't need an Advanced Member rank either.

No special privileges for officers - other than extra bank access for withdrawing guild flasks and food buffs prior to raids.

There is a feature to restrict certain ranks to only those with an authenticator attached to their account. It doesn't appear to be enabled yet, but I recommend we set it to required for officers.

Bank manager - one or two officer alts assigned as BM which would provide unlimited GB access for periodically auctioning and/or vendoring all the junk that accumulates in the bank. Having a dedicated character for this role is sensible as it is easier to monitor where the gold belongs (eg keep a float of 10g on the character and any excess is deposited in the GB).

Whatever ranking system is decided, once it is finalised the system and privileges of each rank should be publicised among the members - on a forum announcement and also worth summarising in one of Vil's excellent newsletters. It is only fair that guildies understand what privileges are granted and what sort of restrictions apply to each rank.

All IMHO. Cheers

Thanks all for you honest and frank opinions.
After reading this lot, my current thoughts go something like this:

Assistant (1 or 2) for guild maintenance, recruitment, bank etc.
Raid leaders (officers responsible for putting raids in calendar, inviting, flasks etc -enough for 2 each raid working together)
Raiders Members who raid regularly, (i.e at least twice per week)
Social Members (occasional raiders and those who just like to level, do 5 mans, chat etc)
Alts (all alts, no special priveleges)

Raid leaders and above would need more GB access for flasks etc. and would need authenticators. They should also be prepared to lead at least one raid per week.

We only have 3 players who raid with ED now and no rule fits the bill for all. However, it is clear that Daj and Deathshark have the time to do both. To make it fair, they would need to keep daytime and nightime toons pretty seperate. Its evident that Sharky still has his rogue as his main which is fine. I am still wary of you having two mains Daj, as Darrich pointed out. We all really have one main in the end. Its the one you gear up first! Its one thing if you keep them seperate, but many times we have been asked to take Ansh on achievement runs and this tends to wind people up a little. I am sure you can understand why.
Then we have Kos, who seems to be levelling his lock, unless I am mistaken. In this case, his DK now needs to be considered an alt.

I don't want to make complicated sets of rules for alts. In most guilds you wouldn't get any choice-you are either in, or you are out, so I think we are pretty comprimising already. I certainly don't want to encourage anyone else to take up the idea of raiding with two guilds. I fear our tolerant approach could result in us being the social sidekick guild for some more hardcore guild. I'd like to draw a line under this.

Still plenty of time to decide on things, so keep the feedback coming!

Ok a short word from me, had a few beers so hope this come out right.

On Alts:
Well in the end I dont really care too much as long as everyone follow the same rules for Cally raids:

If you sign up to raids, endeavor to turn up on time or let an officer know.
Getting to the raid location before start time is a bonus if you can.
Turn up to raids prepared, repaired, flasks, food just in case.
Stay for the duration of the raid you signed for (may need to be clear on this upfront maybe)
The most important - bring all your fun, energy and focus to the raids and we cant fail.
And as Clangs says Appy Days will follow.

The reason I am not too worried is because if people are rolling on loot on a day time raid, it doesn't really effect me or others at all, and good luck with the rolls. Its not for me personally, but I can understand for the people with much more time. If it comprimises the above rules then something is not working as well as it could perhaps.

On the roles:

GM - ultimately responsible for the guild and issue arbitration
Officer - Raid leaders, raid organisation, support to others
Banker - Manage the guild bank
Guildie - Mains (the toon you spend most time on, even if you are not a raider)
Toon - All guild members that are not Mains

As u can see my vote, (yes) i totally agree with Mags conserns about having 2 mains etc, and i should clear my position on this, as Dajj and sharky did for them selves.
1st of all, i never do daillys on many toons, used to have plenty day time free to play but now things r a bit tough because of damn work,(i should set right my priority's here), so evenning raiding is only way for me during winter at least, until school ends this year. I kinda need a break too, as u have all noticed that since Cata hited our world, i played the hole 1st night, and then very rarelly loged in on any toon.
I started lvling the Warlock 1st as Mags pointed, but this happened only cuz i wanted to do this on a party, to explore new stuff etc.
My lock is 83 now and my DK almost 82 witch means, that i tend to lvl my DK ofc to 85, but having a break, means that i log in every here and then and doing some quests just to hang around with my friends, and not fused to hit 85 yet in any toon.
Having an alt in ED during day as sharky pointed and Dajj happened by asking my GM 1st, getting ok for an awnser and then moving him there, witch i will never regreat. I learned many things there, since i had no experience in harder raiding style, i did many hcs, as dps tank a few times witch made my reflects beter, and i think i become even stronger as a player, not speaking about dps numbers tho, cuz as most on our guild had great stats. DK was, is, and will always be my main, and tbh, i can't remember me saying never to Any of our raids ''i am tired guys sorry, gotta go to sleep, play with kid, see wife, take dog for a walk..., early work tommorow etc etc...'' and plz if anyone remembers me slaging corect me here, and tell me when it was. I never remember me also saying '' guys too many wipes so i cba continiue here, this goes nowhere etc etc'' and quit any raid. My deaths in ICC speaks by them selves i think and all raid stats on DK, and i remember me being in most 1st kills we have with guild, (remember yogg, and all the way up to LK) when many ''Mains'', with no other toon in other guild just cba helping us through this hard progress.
I have no intention to have lock higher than the DK, but this happened i think in a time that was close to Cata expantion, so nat many sirious thing was happening in the Callies, also in the ED, witch was puging to get 10 man runs the last 2 months.
Wait then i would sugest before u ''baptism'' me as an ''alt'', and see, witch toon will hit 85 1st, witch man will Always be there and not only now cuz of the expantion, w8 to see who will stay here spitting blood and be happy about it in progress new raids after the 20 wipes+. Then u can call me what ever u want.
Now if me having the lock in ED makes my guildies feel its not fair in rolling for example as Darich said, i have really no problem to roll as an alt, or even not roll at all. To the end i think i earn with hard work my gear in any toon, i don't feel i steal it from anyone, plus most of my gear was crafted, or from emblem ventors.
I am and plan to stay long in the Callies, since i have many friends here, really close to me, and as we have said many times in previous posts...: ''We are a good bunch of ppl here''!!!
As for the mats in GB donations glyphs herbs inks etc. i cant remember me donating a penny to ED, but i remember some stuff i could put in my CC gb, i remember crafting items for guildies or passing herb stacks, hundrends of them and gold to many guildies also to help them, and all free ofc, witch i think shows if i love ppl here or not.
i can count a few DK's i had to help too, showing rotations, beter talend spec combos, glyphs tips etc.
So don't rush to djudje me, just w8 and see.. The Greek Beast will come back hungry to feed!!!

Love ya all, with respect...
Kostas!

I dont recall ever having asked if i could take Ansh on achievement runs, Rep runs yes but i may be wrong. Anyway im off over home for a few days see yall when i grt back home.

Thanks Kos for clearing up your position on this. If guys don't let me know of things on the forum, then of course I do have to eventually make judgements about things without hearing your contributions first, so this is very helpful. I hope you felt you had enough friends here to explore Cataclysm whilst in a group just as well on your DK though

Daj -sorry if I am wrong on this. I probably am. Whatever kind of run it is, it does wind people up little.

Please guys don't start treating this thread too personally. Its not some witch-hunt or anything! I intended this to purely establish a guild policy on it. I had to bring names into it eventually, as it seemed a little silly to be discussing the situation of 3 guys with different playing circumstances without actually specifying those circumstances.

I think we have said pretty much all there is to be said about this particular topic now, and I am much enlightened! I think the guideline in the future should be that in most cases its not desirable to be raiding with 2 guilds. As a side point in addition to the main fact, how healthy is it to be raiding most days as well as nights anyway? (even though I can imagine Bert doing it if he could!)

Don't forget that this is about policy. We love all our guildies and are grateful for all their contributions on mains AND alts!

Nice to see these issues addressed and concluded in a mature manner all round.

Just one thing to add Kos - if you're busy with work and not too motivated by the game at the moment, please spend some time with your lovely wife, she deserves it. The game will wait and you will enjoy it more after a little break.

Hopefully see you over the Chrimbo break

Thnx Bert, i intend to do so, X-Mass after all is to get familly close together, i allready light the fireplace and loads of meat slow burns close to it